Recent chats

Why does a probability calculation need a clearly defined set of outcomes?

Quick answer

Define the experiment and what counts as one outcome before counting. For two die rolls, outcomes can be ordered pairs such as (2, 5), or totals such as 7. These are both valid descriptions, but the totals are not equally likely: several pairs make 7, while only one pair makes 2. Count or assign probabilities at the level your model defines.

LET’S WORK THROUGH IT

The question, the details, the next step.

Question

I’m trying to find the chance that two rolls of a fair six-sided die add up to 7. Why can’t I just list the possible totals, 2 through 12, and count how many give 7?

Geez

You can list the totals to describe the result, but you can’t assume those 11 totals are equally likely. First decide what one outcome means in your model. For two consecutive rolls, one natural choice is an ordered pair: first-roll result, then second-roll result. For example, (2, 5) and (5, 2) are different outcomes because they record different orders. A sample space is the set of possible outcomes; its outcomes should be mutually exclusive and cover every possible result of the specified experiment. [S1]

Assume the die is fair and the rolls are independent. The ordered-pair model has 36 equally likely pairs. Six pairs add to 7, so the probability is 6/36, or 1/6.

If you instead treat totals 2 through 12 as 11 equally likely outcomes, you get 1/11. That is not the probability of the sum from two rolls: a total of 7 can arise from several pairs, while a total of 2 has just one. Listing totals is fine; treating them as equally likely is the mistake.

Follow-up question

Can you show the two counting conventions side by side, with the assumptions made explicit?

Geez

Assume two rolls of the same fair six-sided die, with independent results. The target event is “the sum is 7.”

  1. Count ordered pairs: An outcome is (first roll, second roll), such as (1, 1) or (1, 2). There are 36 equally likely pairs. The pairs that total 7 are (1, 6), (2, 5), (3, 4), (4, 3), (5, 2), and (6, 1). Result: 6/36 = 1/6.
  1. Count totals, keeping their probabilities: The possible totals are 2 through 12, but they are not equally likely. Total 2 comes from one pair; total 3 from two pairs; total 7 from six pairs. So the probability of 7 is still 6/36 = 1/6.

Both descriptions give the same answer when probabilities are handled correctly. The second groups pairs by their total; it does not make the total categories equally likely. Equal-likelihood counting applies only when the outcomes being counted really are equally likely. [S1]

Follow-up question

So when would counting 1 out of 11 be right? Is it ever okay to use the list of totals directly?

Geez

Counting 1 out of 11 would be right for a different experiment: one where a total from 2 through 12 is selected uniformly at random. That is not the experiment described above.

You can use totals directly if you know their probabilities. In this example, the probability of a total is the number of ordered pairs producing it divided by 36: total 7 has probability 6/36, while total 2 has probability 1/36. If your target includes several totals, add their probabilities.

The die’s fairness and the independence of the rolls are assumptions here, not conclusions from the outcome definitions. If those assumptions do not fit your experiment, the probabilities may differ.

Follow-up question

What’s a quick way to check that I’ve defined the outcomes well enough before calculating?

Geez

Write down the experiment, what one outcome means, and the event you want to count. Check that every possible result is represented exactly once. Then check whether the outcomes you plan to count are equally likely; if not, use their probabilities rather than a simple favorable-over-total count. [S1]

For this example: “Experiment: roll a fair six-sided die twice independently. Outcome: ordered pair (first roll, second roll). Event: the numbers sum to 7. Count: 6 favorable pairs out of 36 equally likely pairs. Probability: 1/6.” If you choose totals instead, remember that the totals are grouped outcomes and are not equally likely.

A practical checklist

  • State exactly what experiment is being performed, including how many rolls.

  • Define one outcome clearly, such as an ordered pair or a total.

  • Check that the outcomes cover every possible result without overlap.

  • Identify whether the outcomes are equally likely; state any assumptions.

  • Count the target event, or add its outcome probabilities if they differ.

A few more useful answers

Does choosing a different set of outcomes change the actual probability?

Not when both descriptions represent the same experiment and their probabilities are handled correctly. The description can change the counting method, not the underlying chance.

Why are ordered pairs treated as different if the sum is the same?

They are different outcomes in a model that records the first and second roll separately. You can group them by sum, but the resulting totals have different probabilities.

Can I always use favorable outcomes divided by all outcomes?

Only when the outcomes in the defined sample space are equally likely. Otherwise, add the probabilities of the favorable outcomes instead of relying on a count alone.

Sources

References used for this guide.

  1. [S1] Probabilistic Models and Probability Measures — MIT OpenCourseWare, 6.436J/15.085J
    ocw.mit.edu · Checked

YOUR QUESTION. YOUR DETAILS.

Let’s work through your situation.

Get a tailored answer or help with your next task. Starts at $1, with a quote before you pay.

Ask your own question
← Back to Geez at Work